With the presentation of the brochure, the network of educating villages of Oinherrie has organized a full day on May 16 in Mondragón. Using this excuse, we interviewed three of the members who participated in the brochure: Ibaia Fresnedo Moreno, a sex educator and member of the Hiruki Larroxa cooperative, Lide Galdos, an educator of the Balanzategi Txerretipurdi leisure association, and Aitziber Leoz, a member of the Etxarri Oinaldea (who informed us before we started that he will mainly let the other two speak).

Before we talk about sexuality with children and teenagers, we should consider how we ourselves as adults live, right?

More places to stay in Rio Fresnedo: Within the so-called hidden curriculum, it is first necessary for adults to observe what our own backpack is because we are not neutral, and the relationship with our body, ideas about desire, internalized fears and shame are part of the education we will do, either explicitly or implicitly. We educators often think that sexual education is the transmission of content, but experiences and perspectives are more important than content. And this visualizes a series of questions: what did they leave us without teaching? Where and why do we feel embarrassed? What are our wounds associated with sexuality, both unconscious and internalized taboos? Focusing on the sexual education we have had will give us a solid foundation for working with children and young people later on.

Pictures of Aitziber Leoz: After all, we often transmit our fears to children and adolescents, and it is important to educate the educators themselves, in the concerns they have and in the rest, to give them tools.

The brochure states that, beyond sexual education at school, non-formal education is a privileged space for informal sexuality.

Pictures of Lide Galdos: Given the context, the relationships that are created are not as vertical as those of the school (teacher-student), they also come to our spaces by their own choice, and taking into account all this, when they have some responsibility they tend to appeal to the educator. In the case of teenagers, they come to us with the right questions (I remember, for example, one that came to us asking about their sexual orientation) and we can also do a more direct elaboration. In the case of children, for example, in the children’s playroom, which welcomes children from 3 to 12 years of age, the elaboration tends to be more transversal, sharing different materials and perspectives, proposing games related to body expression... and at these ages, it is usually the parents who are concerned.

Oh, yeah? With what kind of worries?

I'm talking about L. More places to stay in Galdos: For example, once a parent came to us, he saw two children (not in the cellar, but those who came to the cellar) popping on their lips, and he worried because he did not know how this situation had happened (by permission) and asked if it was okay.

In fact, a real situation that you have brought to the brochure is that some children were playing “truth or challenge” in the ludoteca and their parents came worried about kissing each other. What should the teacher do in front of this game? And with the families?

I. I. I... Pictures of Fresnedo: There is immense maturity, not only among educators, but also in the way parents and families understand sexuality. They read from the glasses of adults, without delving into the intrinsic characteristics that we have associated with the sexual development of human beings at every stage of life, and justly in childhood one of these characteristics is curiosity, the strengthening of relationships between equals and self-exploration. These are the three elements that make children play these types of games, and they are organic games, although adults always trigger the alarm, because behind this game we see that the next step will be to start playing with the genitals or to practice coitus. With the incorporation of the same erotic logics as the adults, we foresee this risk, as well as the risk of rape or abuse, but the problem is the approach of the adults. We return again to the first question, the sexual education that we adults have received.

What to do in this case? First, the recognition of pleasure and enjoyment; if they are playing, we must understand it as a game and not judge it, the game serves, among other things, to learn to assimilate the symbolic world of adults, to identify limitations and desires. We should allow them to play “truth or challenge”, to play those related to exploration, just because behind these games there are educational objectives, even if the children themselves do not know it. Of course, if you see any abuse of power or concrete violence, intervene, but if not, leave it free, because the automatic response of educators is always to cut it, which leads to the public erotic manifestations of sexuality being understood as shameful and to educate children and young people in self-repression and self-censorship.

Leave it free at that moment, but then the brochure proposes ways to address the issue.

I. I. I... Pictures of Fresnedo: Because it allows us to talk about a wide range of topics: relationships, ways of understanding love, affective expressions and the limitations and risks behind them... To do this, as educators we must be able to identify all the symbolic, cultural and physiological elements behind a simple kiss. And the best way to reflect with children is to ask questions, make them think.

Beyond kissing, a teacher reminds me of what I once mentioned: that the child, by playing to touch, discover and draw each other’s bodies, received a visit from distressed parents.

I. I. I... Pictures of Fresnedo: Once again, we adults are criminalizing, moralizing, pathologizing this erotic desire and curiosity; the messages we transmit to them are often “that can’t be done”, “that is shameful”, from the pessimistic point of view, alarm and prohibition. We must understand that touching one’s own and others’ genitals is an impulse that children have and that they have probably not yet acquired enough tools, for example in relation to respect for borders; that we will change this, but we must not cut it, because otherwise we fall into moralization.

Another real situation that you have collected in the brochure: the child has shown his penis and has had all kinds of reactions around him.

I'm talking about L. More places to stay in Galdos: As Ibai says, without falling into alarmism, because the first reaction influences what the child will receive, we believe beyond the intervention of the moment in more transversal and calmer elaborations. With this child, for example, we can do the elaboration of intimacy later. The context is key: it does not have the same connotation that the child touches the testicles in sight while urinating with a friend in the bathroom, or that the trousers are lowered in the play room in front of everyone because they want to get attention, the focus of the elaboration will not be the same.

It's easier to imagine the boy showing his ass and penis than the fuckin' girl showing her ass and ass.

I. I. I... Pictures of Fresnedo: Because the gender gap is obvious. This nakedness will not be seen in the same way, neither among equals nor among adults. Beyond nudity, with masturbation, sexual practices... the gender gap and inequalities are evident and we have addressed them in the brochure.

Linked to the nudity, a summer camp monitor once told me that in order for the children to experience natural nudity (because they were embarrassed, changing the towel up and down for the pool), she had also undressed herself in front of everyone to wear a bathing suit. The monitor is a man. Could he act like that today?

I. I. I... Pictures of Fresnedo: Probably the answer would be different in another paradigm and reality, but knowing the current reality and considering that we are speaking from a professional role, it seems dangerous to me. It is important to naturalize the relationship of children with nudity and to consider it as a pedagogical objective, but I think we often use the umbrella of the word “natural” when we are not very clear about what we should do and when we have a very open attitude to sexuality. Sexuality is natural, yes, but we also have to be aware of what sexual development is and sexual development is closely linked to age, gender, social class... If we add to this that the educator starts this situation from a relationship of power by the simple fact of being an adult and being a man, I do not see it appropriate to undress an adult in front of a group of children, and not by nudity itself, but by all the symbolism behind this nudity. To address the issue, I find it more interesting to talk about nudity than to undress directly.

In the name of naturalness, for example, we undress and change all the little children on the beach, because we do not consider them as sexual human beings, like angels, but we must take into account the individuality and we should resort to the experiences of each child. Some children are embarrassed and/or live badly to get naked so harshly in public.

Nudity is inextricably linked to the body. Obesity, being feathered, complex... To what extent do teenagers experience the body from shame and conflict?

I'm talking about L. More places to stay in Galdos: Today, moreover, with the strength that social networks have acquired and the oppression of hegemonic body models that we have, teenagers lack different models. An indication of this is the high number of eating disorders.

I. I. I... Pictures of Fresnedo: It is the responsibility of educators to think about which bodies are considered desirable in our society. To what extent are we willing to share our own vulnerabilities with young people? Because again we are criminalizing adolescence when we associate it with complexes, but we all have complexes. Educators are their referents, and it is important to share our complexes and put on the table the mechanisms and devices behind them.

Wow, what a tough exercise, huh? Be vulnerable to teens who might invent a nickname for you.

I. I. I... Pictures of Fresnedo: Yes, it is hard, but educators often base our legitimacy on the conscious, cognitive and moral plane, while we manage to connect more to young people when we approach them from the emotional plane. The ultra-right is doing this: it creates emotional bonds and then takes them to the ideological plane. If we don’t show vulnerability, they won’t show vulnerability, and they have to learn how to show vulnerability because that’s what will make them strong and empowered.

I'm talking about L. More places to stay in Galdos: We educators also have the pressure that children and teenagers have on the body. The 7-8-year-old boy came to tell me that another boy called me a “potato”. I am aware that I am fat, I have elaborated on it, and at the moment I decided not to go to that child, I took the time to think about what to say. When I approached him, even though everyone thought I was going to rebuke him, instead of putting the baby on the stand in front of everyone I talked to him and asked him why he said that. That I didn't know. “Maybe to make the rest laugh and call the attention of the group?” I said, and he said yes. “It doesn’t hurt me that you call me fat, what hurts me is that I use my body to make others laugh and put you in the center,” I said, and I think I broke the schematics. Although I always looked strong outward as an educator, it was a vulnerable moment for me, but I tried to turn around and focus on what I wanted to respond to.

Some of the other real situations that you have collected in the brochure are related to gender roles: boys don’t cry, they don’t paint their nails... They probably have a theory heard; what is your technique to not consider what you say as a theoretically and politically correct plate?

I'm talking about L. More places to stay in Galdos: They will pass with a one-day pass. I would separate two moments. On the one hand, if such an attack occurs or if a child is not comfortable due to some attitude, the intervention of the moment is necessary because it is necessary to comply with the rules and limits of coexistence in order to make the nursery or playground as safe as possible for everyone. Non-formal education is a free space for enjoyment, but not everything counts. On the other hand, the elaboration is carried out slowly, transversely, either through the use of different materials and games, by the different models and bodies that come to the library, taking advantage of the moments of dialogue and reflection that arise... from which the connections are also born.

“Not everything is worth it,” he says. However, non-judgement is the recommendation contained in all or almost all of the interventions in the brochure.

I'm talking about L. More places to stay in Galdos: When we say not to judge, we mean that educators must be aware of the position from which we look at the child or young person’s attitude. How this particular situation has affected me as an educator, for example, will have to do with my intervention. It is difficult not to judge an attitude, but as educators we must be aware of where this judgment comes from. We have to see what the context is and try to understand the situation of this person, because from our adult entrism we often become moralists who solve “this is okay” and “this is not” without going further.

I. I. I... Pictures of Fresnedo: The trial is quite automatic, but the trial itself does not bring anything transformative, it does not bring changes in their behaviors. In education we say that differentiating attitudes and behaviors is very important. Attitude is our position from our world view, more open or closed, focused on certain values, and we have behaviors according to that attitude. If we want to change the behavior of teenagers, we need to focus on changing attitudes. When we make the verdict, we want this behavior to change automatically, but this is very difficult, we have to resort to values and roots that are mainly in attitudes; if we manage to influence attitudes, behaviors will change because attitudes for that age are already completely conditioned by social and cultural characteristics. They need information, ideas and models.

In childhood, however, attitudes towards sexuality are based on sexual impulses rather than on social conditioning. They have an open attitude towards sexuality, close to exploration, so focusing on behaviors is key because in their case we need to develop behaviors: internalize some rules, identify boundaries...

I'm talking about A. More places to stay in Leoz: The brochure shows a real example: a teenager has recorded two more videos with his cell phone that are being released and has shared the video with his friends. What you are doing is not legal, but beyond the message “what you are doing is illegal”, instead of focusing on the pedagogy of prohibition, punishment and judgment, a different approach is proposed to reflect on “why shouldn’t I record it”.

How do young people connect today? Has anything paid attention to you?

I'm talking about L. More places to stay in Galdos: Social networks are widely used for dating, with all that this dynamic implies. You appear there the way you want, it can also be distorted with respect to reality, and that is often the starting point of the relationship.

I. I. I... Pictures of Fresnedo: In addition, the pressure is increased by social networks. Some young people will begin to practice sex explicitly (I would say most of them) without a clear knowledge of their body, limitations and desires, and others will feel guilty for not being experienced or developing the roles expected of them. Especially among straight guys.

Not to mention the fact that you can't stop porn. Aware that the vast majority of today’s children and young people have used it, what would you do if you caught children and teenagers of different ages watching porn?

I'm talking about L. More places to stay in Galdos: It would be an excuse to use it as a tool for elaboration.

I. I. I... Pictures of Fresnedo: First of all, what has been said before, we should not be scandalized, because this first reaction of adults is the most important education. There will be porn consumption and we have to accept that. If we punish, obstruct or moralize this consumption, if we judge it, the message is that it is not acceptable and they will not share with us anything about it, whether it is disinformation or a feeling of guilt. On the other hand, we have to take into account the age, because porn is an adult material, and if a child of 8-9 years old sees it, often he will not understand what he is seeing, it will be a purely visual impact that can also cause fear, because he can see very violent practices, strange language... He can leave the children in erotic shock. The priority is to make the child understand that what he has seen is not true and that it is not content for his age. With the 12-14 year old, however, the question is not what he has seen, but what he is building in view of it, what conclusions he has reached: what he understands about sexual relations, desire, power, consent, pleasure...

When we talk about gender, when a guy watches porn he often understands it as training (he has to learn what to do, through porn), and the girl usually sees him as a passive spectator (what they expect from us, how to be desirable).